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Subject:   Traveller-digest V1996 #265
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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 18 July 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 265

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Shipyards, Miniatures, Sales Figures
         2. Apologies w/ re: posting prev msg
         3. Re: Good explanation of jump process
         4. Re: 2300AD
         5. Re: Pop culture
         6. Re: Culture and Realism 
         7. Re: Pop culture
         8. Re: Realism
         9. Re: Realism
        10. Re: Fighters in Space
        11. Re: Realism
        12. Re: Fighters in Space
        13. Assorted
        14. Re: Other Milieus
        15. Re: Ship design on the Web
        16. Re: Speaking of QSDS 1.3 (Td V96#264)
        17. RE:Pop culture
        18. Re: Realism

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 03:51:24 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Shipyards, Miniatures, Sales Figures

Dear Folks -

Joe asked Andrew Wardell: 
>Why, are you planning on opening a shipyard?  :)

Actually, Joe, I came across this problem years ago in MT/Striker. There
is a company called /trendi/ (Tavonni Research, ENgineering and Design,
Inc) in my campaign that makes vehicles, and a PC-owned shipbuilding
company. Both are based on Tavonni (SM 1520). In trying to get a profit
figure for /trendi/, I built a TL 12 air/raft using Striker. It came out
at about Cr150,000 - 200,000. The "real thing" sold for Cr400,000 (Bk2). 
Now, over 50% profit is not bad. 

The starships were a lot closer to their listed prices - presumably the
Bk2 vechile prices were guesses, wherease the ships were built using the
relevant design rules. 

Steve Charlton asked: 
>Since you are "Down Under," are these things still available down there? 

I wish. I can't even remember where I bought them, it was so long ago ("in
a galaxy far, far away", just to continue the quoting thread ;-). It was
probably _Mind Games_ down in Sydney, but they've been shut for 10
years... boy, does that make me feel old! 

...And I even have the Cardboard Heroes. I'll have to see if they are cut
or uncut, but IIRC I have the Adventurers, the Zho military and the
Imperial military packs. Just call me a fanatic - but I've yet to get a
copy of Rog' "Fanatic's Guide..." 

Loren asked: 
>>...200,000 HG... 20,000 MT... 2000 TNE... 
>Where do these numbers come from? 

They were gleaned /en passent/ from Don. Essentially, Joe is correct; we
were discussing the _shipbuilding_ rules only when the figures came up. 
Maybe he meant "the main MT rulebooks" for MT. Certainly he was referring
to FF&S _only_ when he referred to the TNE sales. Sorry to cloud the
figures with bad reporting. %-(

- - Hyphen
(David Jaques-Watson)
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity".


------------------------------

From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 16:11:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Apologies w/ re: posting prev msg

Dave, 

I am *very* sorry for any embarrasment I may have caused you.  *Please*
accept my apologies.  I *won't* do that again.

Franklin


> Franklin-
> 
> Loren called to my attention the fact that my e-mail to you was posted on a 
> Traveller mailing list. I would ask that in the future you would please treat 
> any e-mail from me as private in nature unless I specifically let you know 
> otherwise.
> 
> This is something that used to happen a lot when I was at GDW, and it becomes 
> very difficult for me to be candid to those with whom I correspond if I am 
> wondering if it will wind up published somewhere, either in some Traveller 
> newsletter as an "interview" or on a BBS or mailing list.
> 
> And in this case, having been posted, my remark 
> 
> "Perhaps if enough Traveller fans pester them and make their lives miserable 
> until they get back to me, something will happen."
> 
> looks like I am attempting to organize an insurrection against the poor folks 
> at IG. In the context of a private letter to you, I unthinkingly made the 
> above statement as a flippant remark about my inability to explain why the 
> "Wrap Up" project has stalled, and also referring to my years at GDW on the 
> receiving end of various gamer political action committees. But now that the 
> remark appears as a public post, it looks rather more like an attempt to throw 
> rocks. Since I know what it is like to have to answer to large numbers of fans 
> (and Traveller fans are certainly among the most demanding), I have no desire 
> to cause anyone at IG to become "miserable" and would not want them to think 
> that I do.
> 
> I would encourage you to post this e-mail to the same list, in order to set 
> the record straight to the extent that that is possible, and also to inform 
> anyone else who corresponds with me that I consider e-mail to be a 
> confidential exchange between two persons, and not fodder for public 
> consumption. For obvious reasons, I will find it very difficult to correspond 
> with anyone who does not share that understanding.
> 
> I hope this does not make you feel that I am angry at you for having posted 
> the e-mail; I am sure you did it without any ill intentions, and with this 
> e-mail I am not intending to run you down or degrade you. But I do need to 
> make it clear to you and other Traveller aficionados how I feel about e-mail 
> so that further misunderstandings do not arise.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Dave Nilsen
> TNE Line Manager Emeritus

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 16:03:11 -0600
Subject: Re: Good explanation of jump process

On 07/17/96 at 12:15 AM,  sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin) said:

>Joe, you're too soft a referee.  In my universe, the PCs would
>breathe a big sigh of relief that they'd disengaged by jumping, and
>had no indication of misjump.  Then instead of a quick week to
>wherever, they'd have to role-play the nightmare of alarms,
>electronic failures, and mysterious medical problems, which, coupled
>with the zillion surface hits taken in the fight, would lead them to
>conclude that the jump grid wasn't functioning quite right.  Then
>they'd have to trace and repair it, or at least mark off the holes
>where j-space might -- or might not -- be reaching in.  

Oooo! A GM after my own heart!

>In my universe, exposure to jump space screws up electromagnetic
>activity. It doesn't stop it, but scrambles it unpredictably.  The
>results are predictable, however:  The first things to go would be
>the sensitive electromagnetic processes of neural activity. This is
>manifested in vomiting and cramping; then hallucinations and
>synesthesia; then death as the autonomic nervous system stops
>reminding the lungs and heart to work.  Next, the computers and other
>electronics would short out, burn, shut down, or whatever (roll d6). 
>The light bulbs would blow out at some point, too (at least on TL7 or
>lower ships).  

I do just about the same, the effects on devices is more muted than
yours I suspect, but the effects on people is about the same.  

One reason electronic devices are less affected in my games is that
electronics are much less high-tech.  Gravtics shortens the MTBF of 
micro-electronics so much that everybody uses vacumn tube level tech.
(That's also why Virus wasn't an option in my games.<g>)

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 07:18:03 -0700
Subject: Re: 2300AD

Random Encounter wrote:
> 
> I just recently loaned a copy of 2300AD but it does not have near star
> list (or what ever it is called). It has a GM book, player's book and star
> map. So it is quite difficult to play the game without that list.
> 
> I'd like to know if some of you kind souls would e-mail me that list
> (excpesially if it is not too long to type) or a site that possibly has
> that information.
> OOOOOOhhhhhhh CRAP, WE'RE GONNA TAKE A BATH ON THIS ONE
				(Say like Crusty the Clown)

I used to have a copy of that list and it'd be faster to photocopy and 
mail it to you.  At close to 10 (?) 14(?) pages of stellar data, 3d 
co-ordinates, etc etc.  That list is a monster.

I remember programming the French Arm into my 3D animator at the time.  
Turbo Silver for those of you who had Amiga's in the 80's.  It took me 
hours just to program in that one arm.

I'd send it if I had it still, lent it to a friend and he's in 
Saskatchewan on manouvers for the summer.

Derek Stanley



------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 07:27:01 -0700
Subject: Re: Pop culture

ROWAN Iain wrote:
 
> Still, you did give us Saved by the Bell.  Cheers, guys.

We have a beer commercial up here in canada with these two explorers, 
1600's time period, Martian and Jaque.  Anyway they paddle across the 
country and Martian keeps talking about this great beer we'll make in the 
future and what the future will be like.  In one of the episodes he says, 
Martian:
"One day this will be the longest undefended boarder in the world."  

Jaque:
"Undefended against who?"

Martian:
"The people to the south of us, lets call them American's will flock here 
on their holiday's marvel at how clean it is and how great our beer is."

Jaque"
"What will these American's give us in return?"

Martian:
"Something called, 'Baywatch.'"

Yes, Baywatch the high point of American TV culture.  And the brilliant 
point of the show is it's people running, that's it they run, what more 
do you want to see.

I always though this was a brilliant add.

8)

Derek Stanley


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 07:06:33 -0700
Subject: Re: Culture and Realism 

Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> 
> On 16 Jul 96 at 20:50, Joe Walsh spewed:
> 
>>I agree.  Heck, if they wanted to do a bit of research, they could pass
>>off many Earth-cultures as alien, since most people know little about
>>cultures other than their own.
> 
> Actually, this has already been done.  I recall 1 of the Keith
> brothers comparing the culture of the Vargr to the Dakota Sioux
> nation...
> 
> Suspect this one's already happened a time or two...
> Look at the Vilani.  Who are the Vilani?  They're the Japanese, no one 
comes right out an says it but they're our western stereotypical 
Japanese.

Derek Stanley



------------------------------

From: Tom Miller <scouse@inforamp.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 18:23:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Pop culture

>We have a beer commercial up here in canada with these two explorers, 
>1600's time period, Martian and Jaque.  Anyway they paddle across the 
>country and Martian keeps talking about this great beer we'll make in the 
>future and what the future will be like.  In one of the episodes he says, 

Definitely the best commercial around, I even look forward to seeing th next
'installment', kind of unusual considering it's a commercial. :) 

Peter Miller

	----------     This Message is From Either...   ----------

Tom Miller * Liverpool List * Genealogy * http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/	
Peter Miller * New Frontiers * RPG * PBeMs * Homepage down temporarily *

	----------      E-MAIL: scouse@inforamp.net     ----------


------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 15:46:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Realism

On Tue, 16 Jul 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> On 16 Jul 96 at 15:41, Tom Ellis spewed:
>
> > THe only real problems with an interplanetary mission are engineering
> > details, no new technologies are needed.  For that matter, we have designs
> > *now* for a huge .1C craft using nuclear detonation for thrust....no
> > kidding.  The project was called Orion I believe.
>
> Yeah, but who wants to volunteer for that mission...  :-)

Bet you'd get great hazard pay..:)

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
"The gods do not protect fools. Fools are protected by more capable fools"
                                          -- Larry Niven, _Ringworld_


------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 15:53:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Realism

On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Tom Ellis wrote:

> More to the point, what happens if we rev up an Orion class ship to its
> full .1c and SLAM it into some planet?

Engine braking.

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
"The gods do not protect fools. Fools are protected by more capable fools"
                                          -- Larry Niven, _Ringworld_


------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 16:01:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Fighters in Space

On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Larry Hadley wrote:

> > *snicker* That "30 knots" may be the "official" figure that's
> > listed in _Jane's Fighting Ships_, but I've heard stories that
> > indicate the real "top speed" is much, much faster than 30 knots
> > for the big nuke carriers.  Remember, the Jane's figures are jiggered;
> > governments release the numbers they want their *enemies* to know..
> > One of the pecularities of hydrodynamics is that the most "efficient"
> > speed is higher for a longer hull than a shorter one.  "Hull speed"
> > for the USS Nimitz is a *lot* higher than the hull speed of the
> > PT-109.

A good rule of thumb for the upper-end speed capabilities of a large
displacement hull (lie a freighter or a carrier) is the square root of its
length on the water line.  I don't know why it works, it just comes pretty
close...

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
"The gods do not protect fools. Fools are protected by more capable fools"
                                          -- Larry Niven, _Ringworld_


------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 08:47:26 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: Re: Realism

Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

>
>On 16 Jul 96 at 15:41, Tom Ellis spewed:
>
>> THe only real problems with an interplanetary mission are engineering
>> details, no new technologies are needed.  For that matter, we have designs
>> *now* for a huge .1C craft using nuclear detonation for thrust....no
>> kidding.  The project was called Orion I believe.
>
>Yeah, but who wants to volunteer for that mission...  :-)
>
>Stu

        Yeah... that ride would probably jar your fillings loose, all right :).


+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                         From the desk of either                       |
|                                                                       |
|    Roderick Darroch Elliott                  James Stephen Wishart    |
|                                                                       |
|                           gpvll@hk.super.net                          |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 08:47:29 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: Re: Fighters in Space

Cynthia Higgins wrote:

> 
>*snicker* That "30 knots" may be the "official" figure that's 
>listed in _Jane's Fighting Ships_, but I've heard stories that 
>indicate the real "top speed" is much, much faster than 30 knots 
>for the big nuke carriers.  Remember, the Jane's figures are jiggered; 
>governments release the numbers they want their *enemies* to know.. 
>One of the pecularities of hydrodynamics is that the most "efficient" 
>speed is higher for a longer hull than a shorter one.  "Hull speed" 
>for the USS Nimitz is a *lot* higher than the hull speed of the 
>PT-109. 
> 
>                         --Cynthia 

        A couple of points to add: length at waterline to beam is also a
factor, but hull speed is irrelevant if the hull is of the planing type...
which fast smallcraft tend to have, and behemocarriers (I suspect) don't.
And hydrofoils are brutally cool; I usually get a close look at the Hong
Kong-Macau jetfoils every AM on the ferry in to work; you've got to have
respect for a boat that has the Boeing logo on its side...

        But wouldn't the Nimitz planing be a sight to see :)?


+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                         From the desk of either                       |
|                                                                       |
|    Roderick Darroch Elliott                  James Stephen Wishart    |
|                                                                       |
|                           gpvll@hk.super.net                          |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: gdw.support@genie.com
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 96 00:40:00 UTC 0000
Subject: Assorted

Joe Walsh Wrote:

> Loren,
>
> Would it be possible that what was actually referred to was the quantity
> sold of High Guard, MT's ship design rules (boxed set or individual
> book), and FF&S (again, in the boxed set, or sold by itself)?  The
> concern seemed to be the quantity of each set of ship design rules that
> was sold, as opposed to the total quantity of material for each edition
> of Traveller.
>
> Does that make the numbers seem more accurate?

Not really.

FF&S had sold out well before GDW went under, which means that we had
gone through at least one print run (typically 10-20K units for an
initial printing, 2-10K for a second) of FF&S (and IIRC, FF&S had two
printings...maybe I'm misremembering). I forget which book the MT ship
design rules were in (Ref's Com?) but since the book also contained other
material, I don't see how it is possible to tell who was buying ship
rules and who was buying something else. There are reasons for buying
High Guard other than ship design.

IG can go with whatever basis they want to for ship design. I'm sure
Marc/Ken/Don/et alia have other reasons than sales numbers (and I'm
not sure what value there is in comparing total CT to MT to TNE
numbers anyway CT had a tremendous head start and total sales of all
titles were in the millions of units).

Glenn M. Goffin Writes:

>>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
>>Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 20:22:36 -0500 (CDT)
>
>>Perhaps, in the Far Future, acquiring trading information prior to its
>>public release, then trading based on that information, will be illegal
>>as well.
>
>I'll bet that the Zhodani don't have any problems with insider trading.

FWIW --
_My_ Zhodani (the ones Bill Keith and I wrote about lo these 15-20
years ago in JTAS) would consider using psi talents for personal profit
to be a form of theft. if the idea occured to them at all.

Glenn M. Goffin

> I've heard that Citadel made Traveller 25mm figures in the early 80s, as
> well, but I've never seen them.

I have a few (they were hard to get over here), and they are first
class. Don't ask, I'm not parting with them. : )

Ron Dawson:

gdw.support@genie.com wrote:
>
>>  Loren ("I know what was left in the warehouse when we shut down") Wiseman
>
>Speaking of the warehouse, whatever happened to whatever stock was left?

Frank and I loaded it onto trucks. The vast majority of these trucks
were headed to various distributors in other states (presumably for
resale...distributors are funny that way). Some of them went to the local
paper salvage company. No TNE products (no Twilight products, no DC
products) went into the shredder.

I'd try at the local hobby shop, and mention Berkeley Games and
Chessex.

Stu Dollar wrote:

> I think you're probably correct with the latter statement...
> What I want to know is who they patterned the K'kree after???  ;-)

Nobody, that I recall. Bill Keith and I dreamed them up, but I can't
recall a coherent influence (other than the theories of Konrad
Lorenz).

LKW


------------------------------

From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@superlink.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 22:46:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Other Milieus

At 09:03 AM 7/17/96 -0400, you wrote:

>If you *really* want to have fun (and work your ass off), do a completely
>alternate campaign, it can be alot of fun.
>

Watch my web pages... I am going to publish my alternate campaign.
Hopefully real soon if my family will give me time to finish...
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
- -=-=-
Peter L. Berghold -- Sr Unix Specialist, TCG, Staten Island NY
http://mars.superlink.net/~peterb               peterb@superlink.net 
VOX: (718) 355-2722                              -or- berghold@tcg.com
FAX: (718) 355-4282   "... once more into the breach..."


------------------------------

From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@superlink.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 22:46:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Ship design on the Web

Send me a copy of this when it is ready... Or... I can help assist in
debugging it and
checking for syntatical/symantic problems...

At 05:19 PM 7/17/96 EDT, you wrote:
>Liam_McCauley writes 
>
>>After playing with Jo Grant's  spreadsheet, and seeing how nice that was,
>  Thank you!
>
>>it seems that it wouldn't  be too dificult (for someone else ;-)) to create a 
>form
>>for generating  T4 ships using the QSDS.
>  I'm currently working on turning my spreadsheet into a C++ class. People can
>then write all sorts of ship-generators based around it. I passed it on to
>James Dempsey to see if a Java conversion was feasible.
>  If anyone else wants to mess with the current half-baked class let me know...
>
>     Jo
>
>
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
- -=-=-
Peter L. Berghold -- Sr Unix Specialist, TCG, Staten Island NY
http://mars.superlink.net/~peterb               peterb@superlink.net 
VOX: (718) 355-2722                              -or- berghold@tcg.com
FAX: (718) 355-4282   "... once more into the breach..."


------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 23:35:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Speaking of QSDS 1.3 (Td V96#264)

cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic) wrote:
> Wildstar, did you ever fix those broken HePLar tables from  
> QSDS 1.3?  Is there a version 1.4 yet? 

Not yet.  I'm in the throes of an upgrade here at home (my Amiga
of 10 years has been replaced by an Intel box); on top of that, I've
been taking extra work to try and get the new PC paid for.  Unfortunately,
Traveller doesn't pay, so it's at the bottom of the priority list.

The basic fix is that HEPlaR drives should use 14 (yes, 14) times the power
listed.  That hurts, and will probably break a lot of HEPlaR ship designs.
Hopefully tomorrow evening I can finish getting the new PC set up, and get
Excel to generated the new HEPlaR table for me.  That is, if my clients are
happy with their scripts and don't want me to change it.  Again.

wildstar@qrc.com
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                   "Mr. Bell, after careful consideration of your invention,
                    while it is a very interesting novelty, we have come to
                    the conclusion that it has no commercial possibilities."
                                                --- J.P. Morgan to A.G. Bell

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 19:28:05 -0600
Subject: RE:Pop culture

On 07/17/96 at 11:47 AM, ROWAN Iain
<wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk> said:

>Still, you did give us Saved by the Bell.  

No!  No!  I'm *sure* "Saved by the Bell" is Canadian..don't they say
"aboot" and "ay", a lot on that show? <g>

Cheers...

Well OK, I'll admit to "Cheers"..even "The Beverly Hillbillies"..but
not "Saved by the Bell!"

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 19:17:57 -0600
Subject: Re: Realism

On 07/17/96 at 11:13 AM,  Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com> said:

>To wax serious for a moment, the Orion designs were never intended
>for interplanetary travel, but for interstellar, sublight travel. 
>They would be illegal because international law prohibits the
>detonation of nuclear devices in orbit or in space.

Currently yes, but that treaty (I think it's a test-ban treaty rather
than an international law) doesn't ban the use of nuclear reactors or
radioactive isotopes for power in satilites.  I also think the ban is
limited to a certain number of kilometers/miles above the surface.  I
almost positive a Nerva style rocket would be OK, both legally and
environmentally *above* the atmosphere.

Frankly an Orion style craft wouldn't be something I would want to see
used except as a last resort anyway.  There are *many* good
alternatives that don't have the problems of an Orion.

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #265
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